The Rentish Podcast

When ‘We Buy Ugly Houses’ Got Ugly + Listing or Lying

• Zach and Patrick • Season 2 • Episode 30

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This week’s horror story is straight out of Texas, how a “We Buy Ugly Houses” franchise turned into a full-blown Ponzi scheme, leaving retirees out hundreds of thousands. Zach and Pat break down how it all went wrong and what every investor should watch for. 

Plus, we debut our new game, Listing or Lying, where one host reads fake and real Zillow listings, and chaos definitely follows.

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SPEAKER_01:

What's going on, everybody? Welcome to the season two of the Rentish Podcast. I'm Zach, and I'm here with my co-host Patrick.

SPEAKER_00:

We're two rookies chasing the dream of real estate investing. In this podcast, we'll talk about property management, wild stories, and everything in between. We don't know it all yet.

SPEAKER_01:

But that's the point! We're learning as we go, just like you. We'll bring in the experts to educate and inform us, and then we'll figure it out together. So let's laugh, learn, and dive into real estate side by side. Gotta be honest with you, buddy, there's some weird energy on that intro read, but I kind of liked it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was really trying to channel my future career in voice acting.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's the thing, is that this whole this whole podcast is not, it's not part of the job. We're really just like shadow putting our resume out there for Disney and Pixar to like come and hire us as voice actors. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. How's your day going?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh so far so good.

SPEAKER_01:

How about you? No, I'm caffeinated up. I'm drinking a we we had chocolate coffee pots. It was actually really good. I was shocked. I usually don't like flavored coffee in any respect, but that was some very subtle, very lovely hints of chocolat. Yeah. And I was very much enjoying it. You're a cran uh pounding the seltzer over there. Yeah, I already had my coffee. Already had your coffee ready to roll, ready to get energized about property management. I'm so pumped. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, yeah. I just saw you the other day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Before you talk about that, thank you for listening to The Rentish Pod. Check us out on socials at the Rentish Pod. Email questions at therentish pod.com. Go to the Rentish uh podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Like us, subscribe, hit the bell for notifications on new episodes. Like us, give us a comment, share it with your friends who like property management and real estate. And then Patrick, go ahead. Oktoberfest.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, as I was saying before I was rudely interrupting.

SPEAKER_01:

Hey, we gotta make the money. We gotta make we gotta pay the bills. Yeah, how was that? We say he's penniless. He laughed. He still doesn't have a mic. We can't afford a third mic anymore. We had to sell the third mic to be able to pay for uh his salary. No, okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Oktoberfest. How was that Schnitzel sandwich you were eating on Saturday evening?

SPEAKER_01:

It was good. Yeah. So this pet we're recording this on uh September 23rd. This past weekend was the Oktoberfest Cincinnati, which is a timeless tradition in our city of Cincinnati where we record this podcast where it is famously the largest Oktoberfest outside of the big one in Munich, Germany. Yes. Um and uh Cincinnati has a big German population. Lots of German immigrants came to Cincinnati back in the day when it was being settled and and and everything. So that's why there's such a big culture of celebrating the heritage of Germ of the German Germanic roots, sorry. But yeah, ate some schnitzel, some red cabbage, some you know those like uh one of my favorite things are those candied nuts that you can get that they serve that are like they like hot, they put them in that wheel, they spin them around and get like all like the sugar on them and stuff. Oh my god, it's like it's like it's addicting. You just like once you pop, you just can't stop. But the food was the food was excellent. I mean the food was great, the beer was great. I love I love going. There was a uh a polka band that played at the one of the far ends of the park until like 1130 that night, and they were just doing like covers of like the killers and frickin' uh they did uh Pink Pony Club, and what but it was like with like tubas and and everything and like an accordion, and it was like just people in leader hosen and dresses and just rocking out, and then it's it's a fun time. Yeah. October 5th is a fun time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I had a bunch of Bratwursts and sausages this weekend. Uh that's one thing I didn't get was a sausage. Oh man, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know. A Ruben. Schnitzel's where it's at, man. That's Schnitzel's great. I had Thursday. So good. You were like getting sun soaked, like letting the the 90 degree Cincinnati weather just beat you right in the face while you pounded beers.

SPEAKER_00:

No, it was I was there from 2 p.m. to 11 p.m. So yeah, I was there for a while. And I I lost my group at some point, and then yeah, I bumped into you, and I thought, and I was like, I'm gonna go over here, and I thought I was never gonna see or hear from you ever again.

SPEAKER_01:

But then you came like five minutes later and Yeah, no, I was I was out and around just kind of eating food and enjoying the atmosphere. But really, really fun. I guess how do you make that transition into talking about property management and real estate, you know? I mean, like, shout out to Cincinnati for the uh the management of the facilities of the grounds. Yeah, I'm really I'm really That's a good one. Yeah. Landscaping costs and all that stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00:

Speaking of landscaping, yeah, what do you landscape real estate? Oh, yeah, right. And what else has to do with real estate? The Rentish Podcast. That's why we get paid the big bucks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

We're right on target here. We got a good show for you guys today. It's gonna be a really fun one. Uh we we don't have an expert to come in on uh for an interview segment for this episode, but what we do have is um Mousse scooting the bench and making a farting noise. Uh we do have if that picked up on the mic, keep that in. And uh we we do have a couple fun stuff. Patrick's got a tenant horror story that he's gonna read, and we're gonna talk about that, and we'll see how that's gonna go. He's giving me a look like he is absolutely thrilled to read this one. So excited. And then after that, we're gonna lighten the mood by playing a little game called Listening or Lying. So uh again, thank you for listening to the show. And Patrick, why don't we get on into it, huh?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so this segment's called Um Incalculable. Oh wow, I'm already messing up the first word. What is it called real estate story? Doing it's a real the segment's called Real Estate Horror Stories, as we talked about. I'm talking about the this the title of the story is incalculable. Right? Incalculable damage. How a we buy ugly houses franchise left a trail of financial wreckage across Texas. Sounds like true horror. Like actual horror. Yeah, no, for sure. So we'll get right into it. Ronald Carver was a skeptical Wow, I'm at I'm butchering this already. Ronald Carver was skeptical when his investment advisor first tried to sell him on an ugly houses investment opportunity eight years ago. But once the Texas retiree heard the details, it seemed like a no-lose situation. Carver would lend money to Charles Carrier, owner of Dallas-based CNC Residential Properties, a high-producing franchise in the Homevestors of America house flipping chain, known for his ubiquitous We Buy Ugly Houses advertisements. The business would then use the dollars to purchase properties in which Carver would receive an ownership stake, securing his investment and an annual return of 9% paid in monthly installments. Worst case, I would end up with a property worth more than what the loan was, Carver said. Of the pitch. Carver started with a 115,000 loan in 2017, and sure enough, the interest payments arrived each month. He had worked three decades at a nuclear power plant and retired without a pension and before he could collect social security. He and his wife lived off the investment income. The deal seemed so good Carver talked his elderly father into investing, starting with$50,000. As the monthly checks arrived as promised, both men increased their investments. By 2024, Carver estimates they had about$700,000 invested with Carrier. Then last fall, the checks stopped. The money Carver and his father had invested was gone. Insert dramatic noise here, producers. Carrier is accused of orchestrating a years-long Ponzi scheme. I'm gonna try to add that into my vernacular. Or one might say had their money bilked. That's good. Yeah, yeah. The financial wreckage is strewn across Texas, having swept up both wealthy investors and older people with modest incomes who dug into retirement savings on the advice of the same investment advisor used by Carver. Dang. That's actually really sad. Yeah, it's really sad. That really sucks. Yep. That really sucks. As early as 2020, Carrier had begun taking out multiple loans on individual properties, some of which she never owned. In cases reviewed by ProPublica, as many as five notes were recorded against a single property, far exceeding the property's value. Carrier also failed to properly record many deeds that were supposed to secure the loans, accumulating more debt than he could ever repay, while investors remained unaware they had no collateral for their investments. That's yeah, that's really, really sad. That's crazy that that just could could like happen too.

SPEAKER_01:

It's crazy it can happen. Yeah, I mean that there's there's a lot, I feel like real estate. I mean, we we talk about this all the time with like the horror stories or whatever, but there's just so many opportunities on all sides of the real estate and investments. Like whether you're a tenant, whether you're a landlord, whether you're just an investor in general, or whatever. There's so many opportunities, it seems like, for people to get really screwed over. Yeah. In a lot of different respects. And there are the variety is what's shocking to me. I want to ask you the we buy ugly houses thing. Yeah. This is like a super common billboard that you see all over the place. And like I've really never thought too much about it. You see them everywhere, and I'm like, okay, so I get the I guess I get the concept, but like I never really thought too much about like who would actually look at one of those billboards and think, like, oh, this is gonna be something that I actually want to take advantage of. I've always kind of thought like it's a little scammy or scummy.

SPEAKER_00:

I never like look at a billboard and I'm like, I'm gonna utilize that service. That's the thing. Unless it's like a new Arby sandwich or something.

SPEAKER_01:

I I think it might be, I mean, like, that certainly seems to be like a difference in a lot of generational kind of ideology, right? It's like physical advertising is just kind of like not the vibe for younger audiences, I would say. Like, I mean, like one of my favorites around Cincinnati is the the bench ads that say l CU Looked. Have you ever seen those? It's a bench and it's got an ad on it with two big eyes, and it's like see you looked bench ads actually do work, and it's like a number to call so that you can rent out space on a bench. I always think about those when I'm like, yeah, okay, so I did I I looked, but does it mean that I'm actually gonna like fall for whatever advertising is on the bench or whatever? Like that. That's kind of the thing with billboards. It's that's like usually it's just like an eyesore, and I just like look right on pie. Right. But clearly there are people out there that see these things, get interested, they see the sales pitch, and they think, you know what, I've got a crappy so that's my other thing, is that like we buy ugly houses. I'm not I'm gonna call them schemes or whatever. Those kinds of places are really just advertising away for people with a damaged property or a hard to sell property. What are they there for exactly? They're there just for like undesirable homes to be given an extra leg up to be sold through like these commercial partners, right? Yeah, I mean I I seems like it. I mean like to me, that just seems like you're adding extra steps to an already like tricky problem. Yeah, no, I I agree. Yeah, producer Mousse handed me his phone. We buy ugly houses as a franchise of homevestors, a company that buys homes in any condition for cash, including properties that need repairs as is. Homevestors uses a network of independently owned and operated franchisees who offer a fast, hassle-free way to sell a house compared to the traditional market. Though this convenience may come at the cost of a lower sale price, the company focuses on speed and convenience for sellers needing to offload properties quickly. No repairs needed, you can sell your house, quote unquote, as is without having to invest in costly renovations.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I feel like it's also though one of those things, like like in this case in the story, where it's like if it's a scam, I feel like a lot of times like you you're instantly scammed, but here they were actually receiving monthly payments. And so it gave them the confidence to then invest more. Yeah. And then you know, then they're out way more money.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever heard of the phrase the long con? Tricking somebody over a period of time, like taking advantage of someone that in the long run, you maybe get more out of the situation.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I mean that makes sense. I that's clearly what what happened, what happened here. At one point in the story do you feel like the red flags became impossible to ignore?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, probably when the checks stopped coming. I mean, uh I just read that question and I was like, I mean, that's a pretty Yeah, I mean, that's a red flag for me in any respect. If suddenly I stopped getting paid, I would be like. No, yeah, if I if I uh suddenly just stop receiving money for like a expected investment, like that is a definite red flag and something you should immediately draw concern on.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Well, what do you think could have been done differently to avoid falling for the for the Ponzi scheme?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, that's a tricky question because it's like, like I said, it's kind of a generational thing, right? Like, I mean, there are people that didn't grow up necessarily as intimate with the internet and with like you know digital advertising and the understanding of the way that the world works, and it's like not to say gullible, like I definitely don't want to use that term because it sounds kind of mean-spirited. Yeah. But here's one of my least favorite things in the world. So if you watch Jeopardy or uh Wheel of Fortune or like the Antiques Roadshow, or what I would dub uh affectionately an old person's show, there's a lot of advertisements that you'll see, commercials in between like the the TV show that are always the same about like, you know, like advertising medicines or like specific like things, like different things that were like more inclined and more targeted to an older demographic.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

One of my least favorite commercials that you'll ever see, it's a commercial about like purchasing a specific company's life alert policy or something like that, where they're specifically targeting older people about life insurance policies or life investments or like like investing on like a like a retirement sort of thing. The way that they frame the commercial is that it's too it looks like a news segment where it's like it's got the news ticker tape and it looks like like a news reporter sitting down at a table with the a client that they're interviewing. It's like, tell me about what this can do for uh elderly people in America or whatever, and they're like talking about it, and it looks like it's a news segment, like on ABC or CNBC or whatever, but it's totally just an ad. It's like a 60-second targeted commercial, and I'm like, that is so manipulative to a specific group of people that it like sucks that that even exists.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, and I've obviously I haven't like fallen for this like scam, but for example, I got an envelope in the mail that was about paying tolls for New York State. And I I was recently in New York to go visit my friend in Buffalo, and they're like they've got the electronic tolls now. Yeah. And I feel like I get like scam texts all the time, and it's easy for me to see that. But like this envelope, it looked legit. But part of me is just like, if I just scan this QR code and pay on, like, who knows if this is actually going, you know, to the right people. So I I always like for that, like I looked up online and tried to not take that source for um like as automatic truth, even though it may have looked legit. Like I did some research and and looked on like you know, Reddit and other sites, like about like like is this site like actually like legitimate, like the one that I'm gonna pay on and all that stuff. So I I always try to verify something before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think the bottom line is just like research whenever you're whenever you're getting into something. I mean, it's hard. It's like we're this podcast is probably primarily listened to by a younger demographic, but it's like there are people in the real estate industry, buyers, sellers, all over, that are, you know, that don't properly do their research, and you just need to make sure that you vet everything. Like, don't don't willingly just like especially when it comes to money and finances, like you want to make sure that you're vetting everything and doing your best due diligence to s to suss out any kind of like potential scam or potential issue, like you want to just make sure that you're covering all your bases, right? Yeah. Yep. Not really much else to say, but sorry, Mr. uh what's his name? Mr. Carver. The Rentish Pod would like to extend a uh a loving hand and let you know you know, we're sorry that this happened to you. This sucks, obviously. If you or someone you know has a story similar like this, feel free to email questions at the rentishpod.com with your story. We'd love we we do truly enjoy listening to the the the horror stories or fun stories. If you have a fun one, feel free to email us and we'd be happy to read it on the show. Alright. Well, that's time to move on, Patrick. Cool. Like so. We're gonna play a game. We're gonna switch it over. We got games. Yeah. It's been a it's been a minute since we played a game on here. So we're gonna play one and I'm gonna host it, and you're gonna play along. Today, we're playing a little game called Listing or Lying. Listing or Lying. I feel like insert theme music here, producers. We'll throw some wild bizarre or just plain unbelievable property listings your way. Pat's job is to guess. Are these actual homes that were on the market, or did we just make them up? Some of these will make you shake your head, others might make you laugh, but one thing's for sure, real estate can get seriously strange. So let's see if Pat can separate listing from lies. Like and who wants to be a millionaire when all the lights like you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. That was good. Alright. So I've got a few listings here. Number one, the most colorful home in Queens. Location, Astoria, Queens, New York. Price$1.85 million. Layout, six-bed, four-bath. Here's the description. You ready for it? So far, you think lie. Yeah. So far you're you're like, this is the lie. Yeah. Alright, tucked away on a quiet street in Astoria, Queens. This three-story townhouse was painted in nearly every shade of the rainbow, from hot pink shutters to lime green trim. Step through a graceful attached entryway into a candy-colored wonderland where every room bursts with personality and soul. Think floor-to-ceiling windows that drench the space in natural light, hand-selected chandeliers that double a sculptural art, and bold floral themed finishes that feel like living in an eternal spring. The most colorful home in Queens. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

No pictures. Okay, no pictures. So okay, that makes it a little bit harder. So originally I was like lie because six-bedroom house in Queens. In New York. For what would you say, 1.6? 1.8 million. I mean, like, I just like knowing how expensive real estate is in New York, I'm thinking like a six-bedroom house. Like 1.8 million. That does seem low. It seems low to me. But also it's it's like Queens and not like Manhattan. So you know, maybe maybe it's not as expensive as I'm as I might think. But like it seems low for that big of a house or that many bedrooms of a house. That said, the fact that it's like claiming to be like the most colorful house, it's drawing sort all sorts of attention to itself for the colors. Sure. Like makes it seem like why would you draw this much attention to yourself instead of like I feel like a scam listing might want to like be a little bit more, you know, incognito and a little bit more like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, something to be said for the art of the sale, though. They're trying to like, they're trying to make a catchy title. That's true.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, they're going, they're going big here. I'm I'm still gonna go lying just because of the way the listing sounded, like the words used, it made it seem seem a little too salesy. A little too salesy. Um so I'm going I'm going lie, with my one hesitation being like, you know, this this grand claim that you're the most colorful house. Like that makes it that draws a little too much attention to itself.

SPEAKER_01:

So listing, listing or lie? You're locking in lying, lying. Show me lie! Yeah, according to producer Musay, this is an actual real listing. Now can I show the photo? Yeah. So that's the photo of the listing. Okay. So, you know, not the most like elegant looking property ever, but it's kind of just got this eclectic sort of like color palette to it. I don't know. Are we gonna put the images in the description of the pod? Okay, cool. Alright, ready for number two? This is m- I don't know why. This is the most obscure this is the most not obscure reference, but it this whole thing is making me think of uh when Lord Farquad is like asking the mirror about the different the different princesses or number three, my lord, pick three. He says pick three and holds up number three, my lord two. Because it's like, oh, it's the eligible batzerette, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

She likes Pinha Colada as a cotton arade.

SPEAKER_01:

Such a good movie. Alright. Next up, listing number two, the UFO house. Location, Perump, Nevada. Okay. Price$799,000. Layout two bedrooms, two bathrooms, 1,700 square feet on 10 acres of land. For the description of the listing, a saucer-shaped aluminum clad home elevated on three concrete piers with a circular great room, panoramic desert views, retractable stairs, and LED landing strip lights. Listing copy claims it was conceived with guidance from off-world engineers and features galactic Wi-Fi, plus a meditation dome, solar panels, and a rainwater capture system are touted as eco-friendly perks.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that's so awesome. Patrick, is it listing or live? I hope it's I hope it's listing so I can live there. That sounds amazing. You want to live in the UFO home? Dude, that sounds awesome. I don't know. Like, that's another one.

SPEAKER_01:

Sounds like a nerd's like paradise. Yeah, that's crazy. Some neck beard is gonna move in there and never leave.

SPEAKER_00:

That sounds like that's just crazy if that does exist. But so it's so out there that I feel like it has like I'm I'm going, I'm going listing. Like it just it sounds so out there that I'm gonna I'm gonna say that sounds real.

SPEAKER_01:

Show me listing!

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright, so yeah, that was a lie. The UFO house is a lie. It's funny because like I I I don't know if you've ever gone, have you ever used Airbnb and looked at like like quirky, the quirky listings, like the unique listings that they have? Not no, I haven't. You can stay in some places that straight up look like flying saucers. Oh, that's so sweet. Really quick, and then we're gonna end this bad boy. Next up, the two toilet bathroom. Location Shrewsbury, Shro Holy moly, Shrewsbury, Shropshire in the United Kingdom.

SPEAKER_00:

That sounds like a big place.

SPEAKER_01:

It's located in Shrewsbury, Shropsburg, the most magical kingdom in all of the UK. Priced at$400,000, five bed, one bath, two toilets. Uh this unassuming semi-detached house offers spacious and flexible accommodation, ideal for modern family life. But it also has one feature that's got everyone talking. The main bathroom features two toilets placed side by side. The rest of the home is more traditional but generous, with five bedrooms, shared living spaces, and plenty of room to make your own. The property's layout and design suggests its former life as a pub might explain the double lose. Is it listing or lie?

SPEAKER_00:

That's just such a ridiculous selling point. Like like who's gonna do that? Like, take like two like two friends. You can you can take a dump with your friend. Like, what kind of selling point is that? Like, um, I don't know. That's ridiculous. I'm gonna go but like I'm gonna guess true for the same reason. It's just like why would you like the UFO? It's like, yeah, I thought it was so ridiculous, but it's like that's a selling point. Like, this is not a selling point. Like, no, like, I don't know. It sounds I'm somebody it doesn't sound like a selling point, which means that you're thinking it's true. I'm I'm thinking it's just a poorly engineered house and they have to just like lean into it. Okay, you know, versus like why would somebody fake this listing and be like, you know, like people will want to live here. Okay. You know, that's just my gut.

SPEAKER_01:

Alright, so you're listing or you're going listing. I'm going listing. Show me listing. It's a listing. Okay. All right. I guess. You can't hear when the producer even screams listing into the microphone. So yeah, no, this is true. This is a listing. Okay. Alright, good. I got one. And here's the photo. So I think a simple plumbing job might fix this problem.

SPEAKER_00:

It's stupid. It's like like it's like take your pick when you walk in. Hmm, which one do I want to? I guess you could do one. Oh, genius. One has the toilet seat up and the other one has the toilet seat down. That way everybody's happy. That would fix every married argument.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. One toilet seat up. That is really funny. Okay. Last one. The submerged condo in Key Bichane, Florida. 3.6 million per unit. Uh, three bedroom, three and a half bath, 2,400 square foot. The description on the on Zillow. Marketed as the first of its kind below sea level living. These luxury condos claim to sit 12 feet under the waterline with 360-degree reef views through reinforced acrylic windows. Amenities include a glass-walled elevator descending from the shore-level lobby, a rooftop infinity pool that's above water, of course, and private boat slips. Interior renderings show manta rays gliding past the living room. Listing or live.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm gonna go that sounds like a Bond villain lair. Like or if if this is real, that's just like the most rich kid energy thing I've ever heard. That's pretty extra. That is so extravagant. Um, night school.

SPEAKER_01:

Nightmare. I would never pay to live underwater. No. Insanity. No, agreed. Insanity. If I woke up in the middle of the night and looked out a glass window and saw water.

SPEAKER_00:

Like just a shark. Nope. Uh game over. Yeah, okay. It sounds like it sounds like a Bond villain lair. I'm going fake. I'm going lying. Sorry. Going lying.

SPEAKER_01:

Show me lie! It's a lie. Yeah, it's a lie. It's actually a lie. So yeah, this is another fake one. So you nailed it. You got so what was it? What was Patrick's final? Two for two. Or a two for four.

SPEAKER_00:

Two for four. So two and two.

SPEAKER_01:

Two wins, two losses. Congrats. You at least, I mean, you got 50% of it. We'll see if next time you can suss out the other 50%, but uh, I think you did a good job.

SPEAKER_00:

I would have fallen for the the UFO house. Is that the one? The UFO house. Yeah. Maybe you fall for that one. I would have sunk, whatever,$700,000 of that. I think I was living in Area 51. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe one of these days, Patrick, we can make enough money on this podcast for you to own the UFO house. Well, that's been another episode of the Rentish Podcast. Thank you guys for listening and joining along with the fun and the games and the news and the topics and everything. We've been having fun times talking with you. Remember to follow the show. You can go to the Rentish Pod on your favorite podcast service of choice. Search for us there. Give us a like, give us a follow, give us a comment, five star review, share us with your friends that enjoy real estate, or maybe just enjoy two guys talking about real estate or things that, you know, make us laugh and all that fun stuff there. Email questions at the rentish pod.com if you have a fun real estate story, or if you've got some topic suggestions or ideas, or just anything that you want to write into the show, just questions about real estate, questions about property management, we'd be happy to answer those questions or or give them to a guest to answer. If there's someone you'd like to see us interview on the show, feel free to message us as well. But yeah, that's about it. At the Rentish Pod on social media. I've been Zach, that's been Pat, and we'll see you guys next time. The Rentish Podcast is recorded in Cincinnati, Ohio, hosted by Patrick Giro and me, Zach Rotello. Produced by Mousse Gabermescell and Charlene Mulchendani. Edited by Elliot Mongenis. Theme song by me, Zach Rotello.